reading time: 22min

Sebastian Mullaert requires little introduction - having been part of Minilogue, releasing under his own name and as well as under Wa Wu We, he is a long known powerhouse in electronic music. Even more so, as his works and interests go beyond merely producing music but involve multiple other projects that relate to his pure improvisational mindset. Just this week the 3rd round of his successful mentorship program In Bloom is starting ( info below!). In a time where likes and so-called epic moments seem to have been too important, where algorithms design an influence on our daily views and interests Mullaert sets a counterpoint. Charlie Chaplin once said: “We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity.” In my conversation with Sebastian, I felt confirmation that his works are exactly about that. That may explain why his music feels so very, very human to many. Space is created, where failure is not more than a concept, where differences are invited and encouraged, where growth is un-learning and the notion of success is far from being a synonym of accumulation of likes or perfection. Playing music as an ignition for being and the very purpose of being is not to become someone or something else. Curious about his approach to Circle of Live and In Bloom I virtually connected with Sebastian in his studio in the Swedish countryside.

I’d like to start this conversation with a question for you. What are the things you actually like to talk about?  People usually come to ask about your latest works and sometimes that can feel very staged or one-sided.

I can talk about many different topics and certain topics I've been talking about more already in interviews and things which, of course, are the topics I'm more interested in. It's one thing what you like to talk about but it's also what I want to share. Sometimes it's nice when someone throws you into a question and somehow, it is actually opening something relevant, but it was maybe not the thing that came close. Doing an interview is a jam. It's something you do together and your part is to put your seeds and make the energy or the communication between us flow which makes each interview unique.

In terms of sharing, what are the things you like to bring into the world?

I really like to help create spaces where people can connect with their own flow and their creativity, their presence, their consciousness. That's a perspective that you can apply to anything. It really doesn't matter what specific role -if you are an artist, if you own a B&B, if you're a parent, and whatever role you have, I think my ambition is to have that attitude. I want to adhere to space, not telling people what to do or what's right or wrong, but giving a lot of presence into it.  I want to leave space and room for whoever comes into that space. It’s more about reminding people about their own process, about their own creativity, their own dance, their own experience, and allowing that to take form.

How does that approach or better say mindset come to life in your role as a musician?

So I feel that in most of my music I can hear that attitude being there somehow. Of course, I have my voice as an artist and I have my songs, but it's still always that step back and abstracting away. It's open for interpretation by the listener or dancer - which I feel is very important in any work I do. Today everything I do is improvised.  This is also something I have been trying to further explore and invite other people into many of the recent projects. Circle of Live is a pure improvisational project. I have a very clear idea of how to invite, to not demand, and to not set. It's setting a really warm and comfortable frame without pushing people into it or telling people what they should do in that frame. It's giving people strength and excitement to do something and see what comes out.
It's also an invitation to an audience to actually see in their own experience - to feel what is the difference between experiencing improvised art and music, and our experience of more produced and planned music. It's two completely different approaches that can be very beautiful in different ways. Improvising on an artist's perspective, you get into it. What you get out of it is that, as a listener, an audience, very gently you allow your own voice and to experience your own part in it - when you start to really get into it and you start to feel that magic of dancing for a long time or listening to music and you feel that presence within yourself. It's not something that someone else gave you. It was that frame that allowed your own magic to come out and that feeling of magic. I truly believe this is never outside of you, it's always you getting in touch with yourself.

Circle of Live is one of the projects focused on improvisation. How does that apply to your other “fields of play”?

It’s a similar thing, but with an acoustic setting ( ref. to “Natthall”, the recent project with Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich). For me, it becomes a challenge on the technical side how to meet other types of positions -without any electronic background or maybe with individuals that haven't been at Berghain for 20 hours and felt the things you feel there.  People have other experiences of music and how can these two worlds come together in improvisation? Also now In Bloom is an attempt to keep all this. Both when we talked with the customers, but also the other teachers - because we were up to five, six teachers at In Bloom - is to try to encourage them to not get into a dogma or not get into like “this is how we do it here”. Rather:  what are you excited about sharing if you have three or five or 10 episodes and you have students. Do you -like you asked me “what do you want to talk about”  - ask, like, what do I want to share, and that educational platform becomes that. 
I encourage other teachers to follow that feeling and not need to think about any frames of a school.

Do you recall a point in time when this approach started to surface? People go through different phases and one matures or undergoes different developmental phases. At some point - that’s at least my experience - you most probably find your sense of purpose or feel you peeled off what is unnecessary for oneself.

I think it's good you say peeling away because for me improvisation and artistic and musical processes are very similar to a spiritual process. Meditation and Improvisation for me are two different approaches to the same thing. For me improvising, playing, and listening to music with that intention and attitude becomes a healing process where I'm inviting my own presence to shine and it's always about peeling away. It's not to understand something externally. It's not to get something. It's not to achieve something. It's always to peel off and feel the center, feel our presence and our essence. It's something that I have been close to at certain points very strongly and I kind of moved away from it or certain things have covered the pureness and then I peel it away in different ways. And then I have really strong memories of these points where I was kind of ‘what I forgot it is here”. I have memories when being very young, being very close to that while playing on my father's synthesizers and sitting there for hours, not knowing anything. That slowly disappeared, I think, you get into school, you have to learn things and slowly I felt that I do this because of that, instead of just doing.
At one point in early high school, I started to play violin in a pop band. I traveled to festivals and their gigs, I was a little bit like, “Wow, this is cool, we wrote our own songs and I could play whatever I wanted”. Suddenly that was a reminder about how beautiful it is just to write something and play that and not needing to fit that into something else.  The next big reminder was the whole techno scene and I started to go out on weekends and dance for the whole night and come to a type of music that I was not aware of. I could just be free and dance. That was a very strong experience about how dancing for a long time in abstract spaces and to abstract rhythms can open up your own presence and reconnect to what you are. I had a really strong “wow, I want to do this”. 

How did you activate that strong feeling into reality? 

So I had a little trial that I became completely sober for a whole year and I continued going to parties because I wanted to know that it was not the actual culture or any substances that made me like that because I was like, shall I go to the music conservatory?  Shall I gamble all this and not have any education and do techno?  I wanted to make sure that the dance was as strong and important for me, even though I was completely sober. It's a little bit too weird for us 10 times when you go to a place where I used to drink alcohol and it feels a little bit odd, but if you still go and you feel your own space again. That was a really strong reminder and that layer started to come on top. It was a whole thing of learning to produce because I had no background or education in producing. You know, I had a background in writing script and notes playing the violin, piano, but I didn't know what a mixing desk was. I had no clue. There were quite a few years to learn. When learning how to produce and actually do electronic music that really shrank, and then there was some point that it became like, wow, sometimes we need to capture certain knowledge to be able to be free from them. It was just allowing certain elements at your station at the first point, but then slowly leaving this kind of typical electronic music production attitude.

Every detail is important, but it's very, very easy to forget that when you get amazed by certain peaks. Suddenly certain dips feel very pointless and terrible and you want to avoid them instead of embracing them and see them for the beauty that they are.

Having enjoyed a few “Circle of Live” sessions and hearing you talking about improvisation, I’m wondering what are the prerequisites the artists need to have, as you have to feel safe to be able to improvise.  How do you create that safe space for the artists? Especially if you know some of them better than others. 

Yes - it's all about safety and trust. So you're spot on. I just had this plan: I invite a few people, then we have four or five gigs and I wanted to see how it will be.  That first-round turned out to be 12 gigs or something. I didn't know if my idea would work. You know, it could have been a disaster but somehow I always put myself in these situations. I try to allow the artists to be themselves, not telling them what to be. I'm radically saying, not a little bit, but fully saying that: You come here and do what you feel. The Circle of Live has been a lot of talking and meeting the artists where I tried to put the seeds with everyone that, instead of thinking, watch. What do you feel really excited about and really point out that, whatever that is, the purpose now is for that to come out. The purpose is not that it should be a good kick, the purpose is not that people should feel magic - all this comes in my belief from the other way. If we really feel for it and we let out something that feels very honest and true it can also be unpleasant. It can be aggressive or dark music. Normally there will be a journey. When we allow things to come out it’s also like after rain comes sunshine. I feel the music and the jam somehow relates more to how life is for all of us. They are never the most amazing musical journeys - improvised music can't be - there are also episodes where it's searching and you don’t know where it's going and then something happens and I feel that is life. I want to invite that. It's actually wonderful, that is the beauty of life as well. Oftentimes that is the misunderstanding when we think that something perfect that's the purpose of life. The purpose of life is the whole thing. It's not the details. And then, of course, every detail is important, but it's very, very easy to forget that when you get amazed by certain peaks. Suddenly certain dips feel very pointless and terrible and you want to avoid them instead of embracing them and see them for the beauty that they are.

How are artists responding to that approach?

I talked with artists and said you're allowed to do whatever you want. It is quite common for most artists and when you're a newcomer that you feel the need to prove that you're good enough. When you've been in the game for a long time people have like: “this person who played so many gigs”. While we're expecting this and that and feel this pressure I should not fail and I really tried to say that if this is a terrible gig it is also amazing. The purpose is to not judge if it was bad. Like, what could we do better, blah, blah, blah. What we can do better is maybe the setting, the sound - the things that are about the frame but not the music itself. Whatever came out, there was that and we're happy about that.
In the beginning, it was a little bit unclear for the artists and I couldn't really grasp it, because I invited people to play the super long sessions. Then I said all the time that it's not about everyone playing the whole time. It's really the opposite. It's about playing when you feel for playing and when you don't feel it anymore, leave, lay down, or dance. It is not “I should play the whole time”. That's something I had to address because people were like, I want to play 12 hours because it becomes a mission.

Going out, listening to a live set, or to a DJ it can be like, oh, I want to know this track, I want to like listen back to it at home. With the Circle of Live, there is no point in getting distracted by how amazing that track is because it won't be there. Maybe there is a recording at some point but you're really forced to be in that moment. You can either engage in it or not. That's your choice. There's a lot of not being present nowadays, people do all kinds of things on dance floors, but then a lot of times they are not with music and dancing. There are no dance floors these days, and while I am listening to more music, I miss the unplanned experience of this. The unforeseeable is special about Circle of Live.

Yeah, I'm happy to hear that. That’s really what we want to do. I have another project now with a choreographer/dancer. It's also a research project where we tried to see radical movements and dance and how important that is for awakening this creative life force that we have and to try to experiment in different settings, different types of movements. He comes from the performance art and danced, which is very much about the performance audience and the performers felt that they almost disappeared from their bodies because it's all about them being the reaction of everyone’s analytic view. But what he wants is a little bit of that attitude where there is a clear frame somehow because, you know, if you come to a place on that kind of music, it's still something, but you are allowed to take part in the way you want. So it becomes a democratic perspective for an audience. This thing with longer sessions, it's not demanding to an audience, you don't need to come, you don't need to like this. You can stay and you can take part, but you don't have to and I think that that's even though it's quite subtle. If you do, it's what comes from you. You didn't have to. I think that's important and the same when I make music. I want to come to the point where it is to actually take away all purpose of making music and then when I'm there and I feel that It's all good. I don't need to make music. We don't need more music. We don't need me anymore when it comes to music and when I feel that that you know is really perfect as it is. I don't have to do anything. And then I wait in that space of feeling that contentment and then suddenly I want to play. Not because I have to or because I need to do a song, but I come from the natural flow of creation that we all have. 

I want to come to the point where it is to actually take away all purpose of making music and then when I'm there and I feel that, it's all good. I don't need to make music. We don't need more music. We don't need me anymore when it comes to music, and when I feel that, that you know, is really perfect as it is. I don't have to do anything. And then I wait in that space of feeling, that contentment, and then suddenly I want to play.

When you work with other artists- in the Circle or for In Bloom or what you just described - is there a common thread in the way you choose them? 

We don't have any specific plan. My business setting or how I work have been formed in a very freeway. The person I work with most, Niko, was my manager for a few years and in the end, he stopped that management and we started our own company together. We put all our love and attention into this and share everything. All incomes are split 50/50 -which is a kind of social experiment. How will that affect our conversations and our well being? I can encourage him to do what he feels is right, and suddenly things turn out amazing because you're allowed someone to follow that. Then, of course, sometimes you can be unsure, and then you can talk about it and help each other. This means that Circle of Live is not my own project, but it's really our project. So when it comes to that the first little group of artists was my selection, but then we are talking about it together and we work with different people.  This means that some of the artists I was much less familiar with and Nico was more familiar and he introduced me like: Listen to this person. And then doing that. This is amazing. Also, I love the variation and not to streamline lineups. There are artists that are still electronic music, but they come from different backgrounds, different sounds. Some people play with an enormous analog rig. Some people have done it for 40 years, others have done it for one year. It's like interacting with these differences because it also triggers quite raw a new setting and reminds us about being fresh and spontaneous. It's also easy with a project like this that you fall back into: Okay, this works, and suddenly that is not spontaneous anymore. What it comes down to, is to feel that this person is interested in improvisation in this way and are they curious about that. It's so much about attitude, how do we see each other, and not trying to be the coolest. That's very important when you consider different artists.

Coming back to In Bloom. I looked at the curriculum and there's a whole session around mindset, how to create partnerships, and communication.

It's really a mentorship program on how to allow your process and whatever that process is and less about “this is how to do it”. How can you encourage your own process and find answers yourself that are relevant for you? That's my course. The different artists will have different courses - like Steevio - he will open a course on modular systems and someone else will open a course about mastering - now, this, this is not completely ready yet. There will be booking agents, maybe doing one about being a booking agent. We tried to take in different aspects of working in our industry.  My intention was to start the educational thing and we did quite a few workshops last year and there was a plan to do retreats here. Now, I've only done it together with Circle of Live artists. Having the hotel here and no gigs and almost going bankrupt - with that, it was just an extreme situation and doing a new course at the same time, it was again one of these situations where I just put myself into and I don't really know why. It's going to be four cycles a year. The first episode is more about creating that warm attitude and after the 11th of the first cycle, I had this post of sadness. There was so much presence built during these 10 weeks. And now the second round with 35 people and was just as amazing. It's so completely different personalities. For the second one, we started the scholarships. So now we have five slots for free for people to apply for. We are trying to find people that we felt were into the topics and subjects, but really couldn't afford to come -the scholarships made the difference. Most of the people are so thankful so it's also a little ego boost when you see people that really get something out of it. I think I'm truly happy having all these people I work with and make this possible:  this course would also not be possible without Niko and Valentina.

It sounds like you have quite some diverse projects already going on at the moment, like the one you mentioned with the choreographer. But it also sounds like there is even more to come. What are the things that will come next?

I felt a bit in this corona time: “ OK let's just see all these different small ideas I had, put them on paper and try to see if they can become something.” it's about spontaneity, conversation, about music, about the experience about seeing possibilities. Our intention with that specific project is to allow it to be more scientific and to get perspectives from a brain scientist. So maybe doing great things that can be proven in a way that they can reach more people or that it can actually be part of education in the schools. Those children can get these tools, while they wait until 2025 and go to clubs and understand that. It's a two-year plan and we're going to the funds to help us to do that. Another project is possibly on equipment. First time I wanted to do it was 15 years ago to build my own live mixer - I even started a process with an engineer and then that didn't happen.  Now a Hi-Fi brand wants me to do amplifiers and speakers with my name on them. So it's all kinds of weird things coming in! It's like the more you do the more happens. Then the whole In Bloom thing - there is an idea to also see ways of actually taking that into having a project with a really nice venue in Malmo called INKONST. It's where I recorded my album. And it's a real alternative to have performance art and music and it's mostly funded. They do the things I really believe in - a bit more political and radical. I want to start a mentorship and project for local young artists.  So I've been kind of planting the seeds for a few years and now because they don't have any shows they have more time to plan this. I want to take it to people that do not naturally reach these places like more newly arrived Swedish people from Syria or Afghanistan to reach other groups. 

With all these meaningful ideas and projects in progress do you still have a lot of studio time yourself at the moment?

I have periods, sometimes I devote myself a lot in the studio for some time and then this process becomes so strong. It's just flowing. It's like an eruption of things happening. The first part of this year was more trying to survive and find new ways. So much communication for my classical tour which changed two times. Then I rebuilt my studio and reconnected everything which takes a long time. When I do that, I allow it to be a slow process. I want to allow new ideas to take form slowly, but now I'm here and I'm making music, a little bit here and there. Dorisburg and I decided to do some music a couple of years ago and we didn't finish it. Then I invited him into my process of how to take things that are recorded and make sounds and loops and things of it. We did it both of us here in the studio and then we went to INKONST to record it. I think we did 60 songs in one week which is the whole foundation for a virtual reality project. Now, we have new Circle of Live releases. We used to do sleeping concerts with Johanna Knutsson. It's eight hours where we just improvise music very subtle and we decided to release one of them. It's an album with 58 songs, maybe eight and a half hours.

This is also to practice the Spotify algorithm and make everyone listen to my music even while they sleep. (laughs)